Ep 6: ASME Boiler Appeal Explainer

In this episode, we’re taking a deep dive into one of AHRI’s more technical topics: codes. The American Society of Mechanical Engineers’ Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code is under consideration for a scope change that would remove three key exemptions from the scope of section 8 of that code. This change would have a huge impact on our industry, driving up the cost and wait time for maintenance and repairs of essential equipment.

AHRI Senior Director of Codes Tom Deary explains the specifics of this issue, what’s at stake, and how AHRI is preparing for the next step in this appeal process.

Read AHRI's white paper here.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Welcome to Making Life Better, an AHRI podcast. Here we'll keep you informed about our upcoming events, important policy issues affecting the industry, updates to our globally recognized and industry-respected equipment certification program, and we'll even share some fun human interest stories and history related to the world of HPACR. This is the place to learn all the ways our members and AHRI make life better for everyone. Welcome back to Making Life Better, an AHRI podcast. I'm Reagan Spencer, the communications manager at AHRI. In this episode, we are taking a deep dive into one of AHRI's more technical topics, codes. The HBACR and water heating industry is highly regulated, and that extends beyond DOE, EPA, and state agencies into the building code arena. These can often be more complicated to keep up with because not only are there several types of codes, like mechanical, residential, and fire, but there are also several different publishers of those codes. For this episode, we're going to be focusing specifically on the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, known as ASME, Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code. ASME is currently considering a scope change that would remove three key exemptions from the scope of Section 8 of that code. This change would have a huge impact on our industry, driving up the cost and wait times for maintenance and repairs of essential equipment. AHRI and 29 other organizations have appealed this proposed change, but everyone has been waiting for their hearings to be scheduled since October 2025. Several months later, we have been told that these hearings will likely happen sometime this summer. I am sure that you have. And I'm going to preface this interview by telling you that I will stop to ask for clarification if you throw out too many acronyms or abbreviations. I've already covered ASME in the introduction, so you are good to go there.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Great. Great. Well, looking forward to this discussion. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

So to start us off, can you define the specific exemptions that could be removed from section eight of the ASME Boiler and Fresher Vessel Code?

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Sure, I'd be happy to. And there are three key exemptions that have been in the code for decades. And the current proposal that we're opposing would remove all three of them entirely. And those three exemptions are, first of all, pressure vessels with an inside diameter, width, height, or cross-section diagonal less than six inches. Secondly, waterside pressure vessels with a design pressure less than 300 PSIG and design temperature less than 210 degrees Fahrenheit. And third, indirectly heated hot water storage tanks with an input rate less than 200 kBTU per hour, water temperature less than 210 degrees Fahrenheit, and water containing capacity less than 200 gallons. And the latter two of those exemptions have been in the code since about the 1980s. And the six-inch exemption, the first one that I mentioned, that has been in the code since at least the 1940s. We don't exactly know which code uh edition that came in because it goes back so far we actually cannot find the version of the code where it first appeared. So these are long-standing exemptions and just an accepted part of the code.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

And what is the current status of this effort?

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Well, we are in the appeal phase right now. AHRI and 29 other uh either companies or organizations have appealed. The proposal has been approved by the BPV8 committee uh despite receiving 266 negative comment letters. They they did not issue responses to those comment letters. There was one sort of broad response that was intended to uh explain why were they why they were dismissing all 266 of them, and then they chose to just move right into approval and move forward. So we submitted our our appeal in October, and it is now June as we recorded this, and uh we still do not have an appeal hearing. Uh so we are waiting for ASME to schedule that. And and I just want to say, you know, the the the nature of the appeal process and any appeal really, it's not consistent with with I think how good code and good standard is developed. Codes and standards are built upon compromise. And appeals are binary by nature. There's a winner and there's a loser. And that's that that's that's too bad because this industry really wants to work together with the folks who who think that these uh these uh exemptions are a problem and find a compromise. But unfortunately, because we've reached the appeal stage, that's not possible. So we are waiting to have our hearing so we can make our case before the appeal board. And you know, we will if that's not successful, there are additional levels of appeal that are open to us, and we plan to pursue those as well if necessary.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

So you've mentioned, um, I mean, boiler and pressure vessel is in the name. You mentioned working with industry, that there's 29 organizations involved. So this is very widely impactful. Can you explain what types of equipment in general that people would be familiar with that would be impacted if this exemption or these exemptions are removed?

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Sure. And I think that's kind of the frightening part is we have no idea how it would be enforced because we are truly in our uncharted territory here, with especially with the six-inch exemption, we don't know what they would choose. Every state sets its own boiler code laws, and every state could choose to enforce this differently. But to give some examples, many of the components you find inside of, say, a residential HBAC system technically do contain pressure. But this industry has a a flawless record of safety when it comes to there are no pressure-related incidents for our members' products when it when it comes to something like this. As you might see in say uh in industrial industrial applications for, you know, factories and all these sorts of pressure vessels that would be used for for these large industrial processes. There's a very good reason why those are covered by a code like this. And it's an essential code. But for our products, which you'd find in homes, what you find in grocery stores, you know, all sorts of businesses, water heaters, there there is no record of pressure-related incidents. So technically, yes, a coil, you know, and or a filter dryer, all these components you might find inside uh of our products, they do contain pressure. And if you were to remove these exemptions and read this by the letter of the law, all of a sudden those might fall under the ASME boiler and pressure vessel code, and we just don't know exactly how jurisdictions would choose to enforce that and what additional regulatory burdens they might put into place.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

So, best and worst case scenario, how would that change the way that you know these equipment and components are maintained and repaired in a you know residential setting?

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Well, the best case scenario is that nothing would change. You know, we we we feel that we have a um, you know, and I don't want to give the impression that our our industry is unregulated. Um we we are a very regulated industry, and our industry uh relies heavily upon UL and various UL standards, UL 6335-2-40, uh-2-89, and and several others. Our industry designs products to those, um, and the products are certified, tested, et cetera. And it's a very high standard of of safety that that goes along with those standards. The worst case, of course, regulatory confusion is always the worst case. And I think there we fear that ultimately we would not know where the line of demarcation between the UL standards that govern our industry and ASME where it will be. There will be overlap. Do we have to design to both? Do we have to decide design to one or the other? That's a big problem. And different states or different cities might answer that question differently. And they must some might say you have to design to UL, and others might say, well, yeah, this needs an ASME stamp. And we don't make different products for different states. Uh so that's that would be a huge issue. It would be burdensome for cost, it would be burdensome for you know, likely timelines for for production and things like that. So really would impact ultimately not just industry, but the consumer.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

And talking more about the consumer, do you have any examples about how removing these exemptions could affect the cost and the wait times for equipment maintenance?

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Sure. Yeah, happy to discuss that. I so, first of all, if let's say you know it was decided that these all these products now fall under the ASME boiler and pressure vessel code, there are some very specific certifications, very specific inspections that go along with that. Uh, for example, you know, this industry employs you know many talented folks. And there, of course, there are certifications that go along with being an installer, uh, etc., uh, a welder, things like that. But to weld on an ASME vessel, you have to be ASME certified. ASME vessels require inspections, uh, third-party inspections, in fact. And all of that requires those qualified folks being available to come do that. Our industry does make some ASME products, uh, large chillers and things like that. We are not uh suggesting that those products should not be stamped and certified to ASME. But having experience with those products, we know what a big responsibility it is and how much that adds, how much paperwork, how much you know, inspection, how many additional folks have to be involved with the manufacturing, with the repair, with the installation, the maintenance. And that's unreasonable to think for for everyone, for the the HVAC system you might have in your home, that you might need additional levels of inspection if somebody has to come do a simple maintenance on it. It's easy to see how that could compound and how that quickly gets unsustainable. We don't think that every state would choose to suddenly do that. But if one does um or one city does, that would be really disruptive, not just again, not just to industry, but to to homeowners and to people who who who need their products serviced quickly and and and ensure that they uh uh have access to replacements uh and and and things like that. So we really do think it's critical that that we avoid any sort of burdensome over-regulation of these products.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

So just to clarify from my own understanding, I'll say my example, you tell me if that's correct or not. But if these exemptions are removed, then having some appliances could go from being a one-person contractor comes out, repairs your equipment, you're good to go. It would become a three to four person job coming from multiple agencies. You'd have a repair person, an inspection person. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Potentially. Um that that that could be something, you know, if depending on the level of repair that that a product needed, it could be something that would require an inspection, or it could be required that a specific person has to do that repair beyond just, you know, the the uh your normal HVAC technician. Or it might require that HVAC technicians might have to get additional certifications depending on the type of repair or or maintenance being done. It could require uh the actual repair being done by an ASME certified technician. So we don't know exactly how that would that would play out. And we don't want to know, frankly. Um, it it it would be you know, there would be a lot of uncertainty around the regulation in this industry, and that's that's never good for industry or for for the consumer.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

AHRI has been very vocal, very involved in opposing these proposed changes. And I think it's helpful for people to understand just how long this process can be. You've mentioned that we're waiting, you know, going on six months for an appeal. Can you briefly summarize your involvement, starting with when this change or this proposed change was first made public?

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Certainly. So I started AHRI three years ago, and I think on my second week, I attended my first meeting on on ASME. So I have been involved with it for three years, but we have a lot of members who have been engaging on this for for much longer than that, for probably seven, eight years. And you know, there was a time where we were working with the committee, and we do not actually have a vote on the ASME BPVA committee. AAHRI does not, no one from the industry does. So those meetings are open and we attend them, but we don't have the authority to to really direct the the committee's uh uh discussion or or or you know influence the the outcome of their votes. So several years ago, I think there were certain folks on the committee who decided that this had been discussed long enough and it was time to put a proposal forward, and we made it clear that that proposal did not take into account any of the the feedback we've provided over the previous years, and and we have continued to provide that feedback during every ballot, every vote, every committee discussion, and uh it it has largely been ignored. So this is, as I said before, uh while we do want to defeat this proposal, you know, we do want to work with the the folks who who have qualms with these exemptions and and find something that that meets all of our needs. And I am confident that we can do that if if we were given the opportunity to start over again. So yeah, AHRI is committed to continuing to be involved even beyond these appeals. We want to continue working with the BPPA committee to achieve some sort of mutually beneficial conclusion to this.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

What are the opportunities for people who are just now learning about it to get involved?

SPEAKER_01 15:16

So AHRI does have an ASME working group. If you would like to join that, uh please reach out to me. Beyond that, though, I'm happy to chat about this anytime. Uh hopefully that's come through. My enthusiasm for this topic hopefully has been apparent throughout this. But people can reach out to me, whether they're AHRI members or not. Um, and because this truly does impact a lot of industries, not just ours. There are many industries that are potentially impacted by these uh exemptions disappearing. And I'm always happy to talk about that. There also, we think there is going to be an opportunity to write letters in support of our appeal. Unfortunately, we can't do that until we have an appeal board, and an appeal board will not be announced until the appeal is scheduled. So we are still waiting on a couple of dominoes to fall here before we're ready for that. But if you're interested in potentially supporting our appeal, and I'm happy to share our appeal with you if you'd like to read it. But uh yeah, there are some things that I think eventually you'll be able to do if you'd like to support this effort. Just right now we're kind of waiting on a few things before that can happen.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

Um, is there anything in closing that you would like to add to help people understand why this is so important?

SPEAKER_01 16:28

I did want to point out that we do have a white paper written on this topic. It's about 15 pages, so it goes pretty deep into why we oppose this. It talks a lot about, you know, our our industry's sterling reputation for safety and what the actual uh standards are that do regulate our industry. If you go on our website, ahri net.org and go under the advocacy tab, uh, you can find our white paper under there. So I certainly encourage you to read that as well because I think it gives a lot of additional background on this topic. I also just wanted to say around codes in general, right now there's a huge topic about affordability. You know, there's there's just lots of discussion about that and whether or not codes, particularly building codes, energy codes, impact affordability. And this is an issue that is directly tied to affordability. And it is mostly happening behind closed doors. So I feel like a lot of people are not aware of this. But if if you want to follow an issue and potentially get involved in an issue that truly does potentially have a negative impact on affordability, fighting this change, that is the cause. I truly believe that. So uh I do think this is a good opportunity for us to maintain the structure that we have in place, to maintain our ability to make products that are safe, reliable, efficient, and affordable. And uh it's an honor to be involved with this effort. And uh I'm more than happy to discuss it with anyone else who's interested.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Well, no one loves codes more than you, Tom. I always send people your way.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

Well, I will make sure to link to that white paper in our episode notes so that people can easily access it and read it and potentially reach out to you with any questions. But thank you so much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

My pleasure. Thanks so much, Renegan.

SPEAKER_02 18:25

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